House Divisions in Vedic & Astrology Classics

[Rohiniranjan]

Using Raman Deep's model (posting reply at the top of thread, to avoid the scroll problem if trying to add to the bottom, as complained about earlier! Happens with IE but not Firefox!), I have not tested the sub-sub concept that is a Post-Krishnamurthy addition, I think! I think Narasimha was very enthusiastic about cusp as the beginning, but he also later reported that it was not working so well. I could be wrong and may be mixing up his statements about cusp-as-beginning with his equally enthusiastic support for SSS and then totally opposite position on that matter.

RR

Regarding cusps=

I, personally, am comfortable with bhava madhya being the middle of the room, as Vedic astrologer are.
The westerns, as far as I know, follow the same concept, but calls/names this point as the begining of the house.

In any case I am convinced of the 'bhava madhya' theory while using Vedic; but strangely...
Krishnamurthy uses Placidus, and while calculating position of subs and sub subs in houses he takes this 'bhavamadhya' as 'bhava arambha' start of the house.

While using K.P. I have found this understanding works well! while using it on the dasa planets; and while doing horary; but did not find much truth while using it on natal cusps, and have the desire to experiment this sometime.
I remember Narasimha ji experimenting with the concept of Krishnamurthy and adapting it to Vedic charts, and he claimed results.

K.P. says that the sub and the sub sub of the first house cuspal point elaborates the physical features of a person; particularly the sub sub's constellation and sign.



Bhrhma mitra may find this interesting.

RishiRahul

[RishiRahul]

Narasimha ji did not go as far to the sub sub concept, though.

Rishi

[Brahma Mihira]

Even I learnt to calculate both KP and SriPathi bhava chalit charts in manually, still I didn't use KP for researching or reading, but some occasions I use sripathi chalit chart. So lot of times planets positions are changing in KP and SriPathi chalit charts which make me confuse. In JHora has SSS chalit chart too. Is KP system well experimented for use in public?

For Sir VJ, I tried with old computer with XP SP2 I think it is before 31-12-2008 but still it is not allow me to install Kundalee software.

[Rohiniranjan]

Even I learnt to calculate both KP and SriPathi bhava chalit charts in manually, still I didn't use KP for researching or reading, but some occasions I use sripathi chalit chart. So lot of times planets positions are changing in KP and SriPathi chalit charts which make me confuse. In JHora has SSS chalit chart too. Is KP system well experimented for use in public?

For Sir VJ, I tried with old computer with XP SP2 I think it is before 31-12-2008 but still it is not allow me to install Kundalee software.

I had an old computer which goes back a few years and has not been in use (one of the kid's old unusued computer). I think it had the original XP without updates due to lack of use. Kundalee did not install on that either. I had really spent quite a bit of time in getting kundali to work and reported back to VJ and his answer was that there was a virus. There was no virus!

Then I ga ve up and ...

[Vinay Jha]

I installed Kundalee on two laptops yesterday, but only ofter the hard disk was re-formatted and Windows-XP re-installed. It contained virus. Another problem arises when older Windows XP gets automatic updates from internet, which prevents VB from working. There is no third reason for preventing Kundalee from being installed.

The recent version of Kundalee is vastly improved from earlier one in all respects, but has not been uploaded. ITS INSTALLATION WILL ALSO BE FAR EASIER.

At the time of writing these lines, I was comparing Ashtakavarga graphs of Congress-I and BJP for 1980-2910 and was surprised to see the capacity of AV in showing events. Kundalee has a lot of features not available in any astrological software and I want to get it translated it into some recent language. I will soon post AV graphs of Congress and BJP on internet.

-VJ

[Vinay Jha]

Even I learnt to calculate both KP and SriPathi bhava chalit charts in manually, still I didn't use KP for researching or reading, but some occasions I use sripathi chalit chart. So lot of times planets positions are changing in KP and SriPathi chalit charts which make me confuse. In JHora has SSS chalit chart too. Is KP system well experimented for use in public?

For Sir VJ, I tried with old computer with XP SP2 I think it is before 31-12-2008 but still it is not allow me to install Kundalee software.

I had an old computer which goes back a few years and has not been in use (one of the kid's old unusued computer). I think it had the original XP without updates due to lack of use. Kundalee did not install on that either. I had really spent quite a bit of time in getting kundali to work and reported back to VJ and his answer was that there was a virus. There was no virus!

Then I ga ve up and ...

Before I came to know about Microsoft's change of policy towards VB6, I took the words of some internet complainants and tried to tamper with the code of Kundalee. The result was that Kundalee's code was distorted which failed to install on most of the machines. Maybe one of these experimental versions got uploaded in hurry, I am not sure. But the version I install on machines of my friends never refuses to install provided the conditions I mentioned are fulfilled. In Varanasi I rarely find a computer without virus, but virus is not the sole reason. The main reason is version incompatibility.

The problem with VB6 is that Setup program created with VB6 installs Kundalee on my machine but fails on a freshly reformatted machine operated with copy of my own old Windows-XP!  VB6 is not my creation. Microsoft is to blame. Then, I have to install Kundalee following certain procedures : manually copying Kundalee files to proper destinations, after which Kundalee works satisfactorily. But before that, VB6 needs to be installed. Presently, I do not know of any alternative method of installing Kundalee.

-VJ

[Brahma Mihira]

I installed Kundalee on two laptops yesterday, but only ofter the hard disk was re-formatted and Windows-XP re-installed. It contained virus. Another problem arises when older Windows XP gets automatic updates from internet, which prevents VB from working. There is no third reason for preventing Kundalee from being installed.

The recent version of Kundalee is vastly improved from earlier one in all respects, but has not been uploaded. ITS INSTALLATION WILL ALSO BE FAR EASIER.

At the time of writing these lines, I was comparing Ashtakavarga graphs of Congress-I and BJP for 1980-2910 and was surprised to see the capacity of AV in showing events. Kundalee has a lot of features not available in any astrological software and I want to get it translated it into some recent language. I will soon post AV graphs of Congress and BJP on internet.

-VJ

Dear VJ

So how we can install new vesion of Kundalee? When it will upload to internet?

Is it also needed VB6 for install?  As I lost my Visual Studio 6 CDs!

Thanks!

[Vinay Jha]

For trouble free installation of Kundalee, one needs :

1)
Windows-XP2 which has not been automatically updated after 31-12-208,

2)
virus-free machine,

3)
VB6 of Visual Studio-6 installation,

4)
and then copying of Kundalee files manually to C:\Kundalee,

5)
and lastly installing three fonts through Control Panel > Fonts > Files > Install New Fonts > Folders > C:\Kundalee and clicking OK after the three fonts in that folder come in the window.

After installation, only one exe file will need to be updated for future versions.

Since Microsoft's setup program made in VB6 does not work in most of machines, the method above is the last alternative.

Rohiniranjan ji says PVR added SSS mode to JHora in short time. PVR had to add only the mathematical portion of Kundalee, which is hardly 10% of Kundalee, and he got the source code. I need to rewrite the entire software of 20,000 pages in some currently recognized language, but I do not know which language should I opt for because I do not want to repeat my experience with Microsoft's game of de-recognizing its own products after few years. In 2008, VB-Express was released, and now VB-2010 has made that obsolete. These 2008 and 2010 versions are entirely different from VB6 and the only common thing is merely the name VB. VB6 programs cannot be automatically upgraded, they need to be re-written from the beginning to end.

-VJ

[Rohiniranjan]

For trouble free installation of Kundalee, one needs :

1)
Windows-XP2 which has not been automatically updated after 31-12-208,

2)
virus-free machine,

3)
VB6 of Visual Studio-6 installation,

4)
and then copying of Kundalee files manually to C:\Kundalee,

5)
and lastly installing three fonts through Control Panel > Fonts > Files > Install New Fonts > Folders > C:\Kundalee and clicking OK after the three fonts in that folder come in the window.

After installation, only one exe file will need to be updated for future versions.

Since Microsoft's setup program made in VB6 does not work in most of machines, the method above is the last alternative.

Rohiniranjan ji says PVR added SSS mode to JHora in short time. PVR had to add only the mathematical portion of Kundalee, which is hardly 10% of Kundalee, and he got the source code. I need to rewrite the entire software of 20,000 pages in some currently recognized language, but I do not know which language should I opt for because I do not want to repeat my experience with Microsoft's game of de-recognizing its own products after few years. In 2008, VB-Express was released, and now VB-2010 has made that obsolete. These 2008 and 2010 versions are entirely different from VB6 and the only common thing is merely the name VB. VB6 programs cannot be automatically upgraded, they need to be re-written from the beginning to end.

-VJ

Maybe another programming language since you are beginning from square 1. Java?

[Rohiniranjan]

...{reducing the bulk of reposted thread for reference}
(2)
Ptolemy never advocated ideas some moderners are knowingly or unknowingly putting in his dead mouth. He dealt with ascendant &c in detail, but never said ascendant is start or middle of a house, because he did not write for fools : his work was for advanced astrologers. During Renaissance, the value of ayanamsha was 15 degrees and tropicalists shifted ascendant to house start and made good forecasts, which strengthened tropicalism in astrology. Before that, tropicalism had no trace in astrology in any part of the world, despite false claims of some moderners. There is no proof.  Read Tetrabiblos in which the commentator gives following explanation of Ptolemy's system :

"the central perpendicular line is the meridian, or cusp of the 10th house; the other short lines, cutting the equator transversely, are the cusps of the other houses; that of the 1st house being the eastern horizon; that of the 7th, the western horizon"

Meridian was the CUSP and not the start of 10th house, hence Lagna was the cusp of first house.

-VJ

Dear Vinay,

Since I am not really interested in Historical research in Astrology and even less so in archeo-astrology, partly because I am not really interested in fishing for lost secrets of Jyotish that we may find in the better preserved (than our scriptures, presumably) western texts (if that is the case!). That should not be taken to mean that those who are into those pursuits are wasting their time but simply that not everyone has to do everything. Groups are doing that kind of research and that is fine.

Now getting back to this simpler matter of house-cusps! If I understand your position correctly, Ptolemy did not specify whether the CUSP is in the middle of house or beginning of house or end of house, right?

Jyotishis are the one who use ayanamsha and they are the ones that treat the house to begin 15(+/-) degrees prior to the CUSP (bhava madhya)

Western astrologers are the ones who do not use ayanamsha and they are the ones that to my knowledge treat the CUSP as the beginning of the house!

So, your reasoning that cusp as mid-point was used to compensate for or include ayanamsha correction is not fitting in with what we see in practice, namely that the tropical astros begin the house with the CUSP!

CUSP means tooth! The term CUSP does not by itself give any hint whether it is supposed to imply the beginning or middle placement of the Lagna-sphuta!

What you quoted does not clarify that situation either as to what Ptolemy really advocated vis-a-vis mid or beginning.

However, if he was visualising a house as a tooth with the significant 'sphuta' being the central point of representation of a house and the bhav-sandhi being the space between two teeth, one can visualize that. BUT in that case his use of the term cusp to represent the specific point, such as lagna sphuta would be a misnomer or misrepresentation! Don't you agree? Do you see my point?

Please try to focus on that and let us resolve and come to a clear understanding and not divert into the Kundalee discussion again. My humble request which I hope you shall not deny us readers. I am being direct and not sarcastic or trying to play games.

Love and Light

[Rohiniranjan]

Narasimha ji did not go as far to the sub sub concept, though.

Rishi

Maybe Narasimha does not believe in Later Day Saints and Sages  :smt003

Krishnamurthy stopped at the Sub (=bhukti level!) for some reason, perhaps he was aware of 'inaccurate birthtimes' and did not believe in 'doctoring' those indiscriminately, as seems to have become the modern pursuit...!

[Vinay Jha]

Dear RR Ji,

>>"I am being direct and not sarcastic or trying to play games. "

Yes Sir. I hope you will also take following statements from me in same spirit.

Cusp means the opposite of trough in a teeth-like waveform. In bhaavachalita, house-starts and house-ends are weak points, while cusp is the point of maximum strength.

"Meridian"  is defined as "cusp of the 10th house"  and not a start of the 10th house. Rising-point of ecliptic, i.e. ascendant, is, therefore, the cusp and not the start of first house. It is strange why you refuse to accept this point.

Ptolemy had no use of ayanamsha because its value was practically zero during his times. Sidereal FPA (First Point of Aries or Meshaarambha) was same as tropica; FPA, i.e., vernal equinox. Modern tropicalists take it as a proof that Ptolemy used advocated tropicalism. But what they neglect and you miss is the fact that tropicalist astrology was never practised in any part of the world before 16th century. Even Copernicus used SSS type of trepidaring ayanamsha with sidereal system, like all followers of Alfonsine or Toledo Tables coming to Europe from Baghdad through Moorish and later Christian Spain. Baghdad learnt from SSS but later invented its own astronomy by mixing SSS with Ptolemy and its own observational science. Earliest Western horoscopy was Chaldean which was sidereal, i.e, based on ayanamsha. My statements are based on historical facts, but what you say is also based on something : ideas of modern tropicalists. You have read those things, instead of delving into original sources. If you are not interested in historical research, then do not pass judgments. You refute truth and then say you are not interested in historical research. Why you cannot keep away from things you do not like?

Secondly, I requested you again and again to keep away from Kundalee and any discussion about it. You say "let us resolve and come to a clear understanding and not divert into the Kundalee discussion again". My answers were for other members here who wanted to test Kundalee. Why you intrude into any discussion about Kundalee?? You try to prevent any discussion about Kundalee in all internet fora, most of which I have left permanently. I know how serious you are about astrological discussion in any internet forum, excepting boloji.com where you put your serious things. In all other fora, you simply destroy serious discussions by means of your trivial talks. recently you have received warnings from the owner of JR forum. I do not want to discuss Kundalee here, least of all with you. This thread is about house divisions, and when I tried to put records straight about cusps in western astrology, you are stating false statements in the name of Ptolemy. Where did Ptolemy state things you claim in his name?? I know modern tropicalists practise what you say, but it is not what Ptolemy said. Ptolemy mentioned the rate of precession discovered by Hipparchus, which means he was aware of sidereal versus tropical. But in his times, both zodiacs coincided. That is all.

Please take my words in an impartial manner and not personally. And please keep away from things and persons you do not like. If you are not interested in historical things like Ptolemy or SSS, then I hope you will never talk about BPHS, because Sage Parashara was also a thing of the past. Modernity without history is nothing.

-VJ

[Rohiniranjan]

There you go again, Vinay ji!
Not interested in historical research does not mean not having faith in the ancient!
I know my great great grand parents were real entities. I am here, am I not? I respect them as one would his or her ancestors. But that does not mean that a study of geneology is mandatory for everyone!
In that regard, I respect and am thankful to BPHS, original and whatever remains of it! So too other texts.
Since certain misinterpretations about me were in your recent post, I must set the record straight!
I always stated that as far as I am concerned, I use the so called 'cusp' as the midpoint of a house!
It is tropicalists who use it as the beginning of the house!
So, in that matter there never was any difference in your or my treatment of the "cusp" or tooth!
Very few internet forums for discussing astrology are sincere or able to sustain serious discussions, for a variety of reasons.
I am not the reason! Even when I do not participate, the level does not necessarily change, as the recent example is evident about which you refer to.
I am serious where seriousness is reciprocated. Boloji and Scribd where my E-articles and books exist are not the only examples.
Why go any further, Mystic Board is a fine example
If you do not wish me to refer to your "software", I will not. I do not wish to increase your already high degree of angst which you have displayed from time to time.

Are you happy now, Vinay_ji??


Love and Light and Reality!

[Vinay Jha]

There you go again, Vinay ji! :-)
Not interested in historical research does not mean not having faith in the ancient!
I know my great great grand parents were real entities. I am here, am I not? :-) I respect them as one would his or her ancestors. But that does not mean that a study of geneology is mandatory for everyone!
In that regard, I respect and am thankful to BPHS, original and whatever remains of it! So too other texts.
Since certain misinterpretations about me were in your recent post, I must set the record straight!
I always stated that as far as I am concerned, I use the so called 'cusp' as the midpoint of a house!
It is tropicalists who use it as the beginning of the house!
So, in that matter there never was any difference in your or my treatment of the "cusp" or tooth!
Very few internet forums for discussing astrology are sincere or able to sustain serious discussions, for a variety of reasons.
I am not the reason! Even when I do not participate, the level does not necessarily change, as the recent example is evident about which you refer to.
I am serious where seriousness is reciprocated. Boloji and Scribd where my E-articles and books exist are not the only examples.
Why go any further, Mystic Board is a fine example :-)
If you do not wish me to refer to your "software", I will not. I do not wish to increase your already high degree of angst which you have displayed from time to time.

Are you happy now, Vinay_ji?? :-)


Love and Light and Reality!

Your statements about modern views about cusp, either yours or or tropicalists, is perfect. So, why discuss Ptolemy, whom you have not read directly (no insult intended, because you are not interested in historical research, while I am)? Let us not discuss things not common to us. Neither Ptolemy is common to us, nor Kundalee. There is nothing bad in this position. OK, dada??

Please remember that my references to Kundalee will not be for you.

-VJ

[Rohiniranjan]

There you go again, Vinay ji!
Not interested in historical research does not mean not having faith in the ancient!
I know my great great grand parents were real entities. I am here, am I not? I respect them as one would his or her ancestors. But that does not mean that a study of geneology is mandatory for everyone!
In that regard, I respect and am thankful to BPHS, original and whatever remains of it! So too other texts.
Since certain misinterpretations about me were in your recent post, I must set the record straight!
I always stated that as far as I am concerned, I use the so called 'cusp' as the midpoint of a house!
It is tropicalists who use it as the beginning of the house!
So, in that matter there never was any difference in your or my treatment of the "cusp" or tooth!
Very few internet forums for discussing astrology are sincere or able to sustain serious discussions, for a variety of reasons.
I am not the reason! Even when I do not participate, the level does not necessarily change, as the recent example is evident about which you refer to.
I am serious where seriousness is reciprocated. Boloji and Scribd where my E-articles and books exist are not the only examples.
Why go any further, Mystic Board is a fine example
If you do not wish me to refer to your "software", I will not. I do not wish to increase your already high degree of angst which you have displayed from time to time.

Are you happy now, Vinay_ji??


Love and Light and Reality!

Your statements about modern views about cusp, either yours or or tropicalists, is perfect. So, why discuss Ptolemy, whom you have not read directly (no insult intended, because you are not interested in historical research, while I am)? Let us not discuss things not common to us. Neither Ptolemy is common to us, nor Kundalee. There is nothing bad in this position. OK, dada??

Please remember that my references to Kundalee will not be for you.

-VJ

You must learn to distinguish between comments and discussion! For you everything is a fight, a confrontation

I do not have any such pent up frustration or anger...!