DEMONIAC SPIRITS-ARE THEY REAL?

[spiritalk]

Here in lay a problem for me. Channeled literature is no different than any other book in that you are laying your trust in others who may not have your best interest, or the best interest of others at heart. The questions posed at the beginning of the thread were great because it brings up a good point, in that how does one know that a spirit is indeed a loved one, especially if we can agree that there are those spirits or demons who do deceive. And regardless if it is a loved one or not, who is to say they have seen all there is to see, in this world or the next. Perhaps t hey know no more than they knew here in this life. Perhaps they do know more, but no more than what God wants them to know; a veil removed, but still more veils to uncover.

J:  I agree, channeled material is just another source.  The medium receives personal information from the light.  Obviously you have not received from the light to KNOW when the spirit is of the light.

I also want to point out, although I was raised Catholic, it does not mean I am Catholic now. It has however given me a perspective that may differ or be shared by others.

J:  The Catholic church is certainly the source of many myths and stories that have been circulating as truths in recent years.  I merely referenced it as you had, but know this is always a grounding before we learn to find our own answers.

One thing I do know is, just because I say something and believe something does not necessarily make it so, and so I do understand that trust must be given somewhere. The real question is where will we lay that trust. It must be reaffirmed each moment of our lives.

J:  I agree again, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.  When we work in the light, there is never a doubt we can trust our source(s).  But to make sure it is our own source we must also do the exercises of attunement that keep us in tune with the best sources.  Being a slacker or not being consistent has been found to be a detriment to the development and continuing work of many a medium.  Again, just from my experiences.

[looking_glass]

Here in lay a problem for me. Channeled literature is no different than any other book in that you are laying your trust in others who may not have your best interest, or the best interest of others at heart. The questions posed at the beginning of the thread were great because it brings up a good point, in that how does one know that a spirit is indeed a loved one, especially if we can agree that there are those spirits or demons who do deceive. And regardless if it is a loved one or not, who is to say they have seen all there is to see, in this world or the next. Perhaps t hey know no more than they knew here in this life. Perhaps they do know more, but no more than what God wants them to know; a veil removed, but still more veils to uncover.

J:  I agree, channeled material is just another source.  The medium receives personal information from the light.  Obviously you have not received from the light to KNOW when the spirit is of the light.

I also want to point out, although I was raised Catholic, it does not mean I am Catholic now. It has however given me a perspective that may differ or be shared by others.

J:  The Catholic church is certainly the source of many myths and stories that have been circulating as truths in recent years.  I merely referenced it as you had, but know this is always a grounding before we learn to find our own answers.

One thing I do know is, just because I say something and believe something does not necessarily make it so, and so I do understand that trust must be given somewhere. The real question is where will we lay that trust. It must be reaffirmed each moment of our lives.

J:  I agree again, the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.  When we work in the light, there is never a doubt we can trust our source(s).  But to make sure it is our own source we must also do the exercises of attunement that keep us in tune with the best sources.  Being a slacker or not being consistent has been found to be a detriment to the development and continuing work of many a medium.  Again, just from my experiences.

No worries Spiritalk, this a great discussion. I just wanted to ask, is it so obvious I "have not received from the light to KNOW when the spirit is of the light?" Look into my heart and into my soul and I will accept what you see.

Take it easy.

[lighting strikes twice]

This topic requires discernment. We don't have to be in out of our bodies to contact demoniac forces. Look what is done in our world. We are not just dealing with flesh and blood but powers unseen by many. Fear and doubt are not always our enemy but maybe it's that little voice that so often gets ignored, until it's to late and then we say, I should have listened! If in doubt-stop! You don't see the full picture and because you don't actually know what awaits you on the other side how can any intelligent individual go against his own warnings? Because we surround ourselves with others of like mind, will that give you assurance? Hey, I'm okay-there are other nuts just like me. Or, am I? But this voice is real and indeed it probably is. Do you honestly believe that you are more cunning than those in the spirit realm? If you think so, you had better think again. It was told more than two thousand years ago that in the future, what is right then will be wrong and what is wrong will be right. Here we are!

[Doe]

Hi, Lightning,

OK--this is not a challenge to what you're saying--just a question to try to clarify.  How do we know whom to trust, and whom to fear?  Which texts, which leaders, which guides, and which teachers can we believe?  Do we just go on our instincts--the "little voice"--or are there other criteria?

There are SO many voices, so many opinions, so many people who believe with every inch of their hearts, minds, and souls that their "little voices," or their beliefs, are the right ones, and that those who don't go along with the resulting opinions will suffer grave consequences (or they use the fear of that to control others who have become afraid to think for themselves--look at how those who objected to the Iraq war were treated at first, and now--"traitors", non-patriots, second-hand killers of the troops).

My instincts tell me to back away from those who believe they "know" the answers, and condemn those who question.  Beyond that, I can only trust myself, and my own little voice, and those who have proven time and again that they can be trusted (and when and if they prove otherwise, then you're right--if in doubt, stop!)  But I can't live my life as a victim to suspicion and fear.  I know that there are things that I will never know for certain, or that I will find out only after this life is over.  That's OK.  If I make mistakes, so be it; so far I've been strong enough to live with the consequences, and try to learn from them.  I have faith that I will learn what I need to know when I need to know it, and in a manner that works for me personally.  If others agree with me, that's great.  If not, I need to respect that (not always easy, of course).

Yes, I just rambled (again!).  I'm just heavily involved in sorting these things out for myself these days.  In my own personal opinion, the fact that I feel the need to do that is a sign that I am, at the very least, not COMPLETELY on the wrong road!

It's wonderful to have a place to discuss these things without too much fear of ridicule.

Doe

[looking_glass]

Hi, Lightning,

OK--this is not a challenge to what you're saying--just a question to try to clarify.  How do we know whom to trust, and whom to fear?  Which texts, which leaders, which guides, and which teachers can we believe?  Do we just go on our instincts--the "little voice"--or are there other criteria?

There are SO many voices, so many opinions, so many people who believe with every inch of their hearts, minds, and souls that their "little voices," or their beliefs, are the right ones, and that those who don't go along with the resulting opinions will suffer grave consequences (or they use the fear of that to control others who have become afraid to think for themselves--look at how those who objected to the Iraq war were treated at first, and now--"traitors", non-patriots, second-hand killers of the troops).

My instincts tell me to back away from those who believe they "know" the answers, and condemn those who question.  Beyond that, I can only trust myself, and my own little voice, and those who have proven time and again that they can be trusted (and when and if they prove otherwise, then you're right--if in doubt, stop!)  But I can't live my life as a victim to suspicion and fear.  I know that there are things that I will never know for certain, or that I will find out only after this life is over.  That's OK.  If I make mistakes, so be it; so far I've been strong enough to live with the consequences, and try to learn from them.  I have faith that I will learn what I need to know when I need to know it, and in a manner that works for me personally.  If others agree with me, that's great.  If not, I need to respect that (not always easy, of course).

Yes, I just rambled (again!).  I'm just heavily involved in sorting these things out for myself these days.  In my own personal opinion, the fact that I feel the need to do that is a sign that I am, at the very least, not COMPLETELY on the wrong road!

It's wonderful to have a place to discuss these things without too much fear of ridicule.

Doe

I know this was a question for Lighting, but I wanted to answer it from my point of view.

I used to ask this a lot of myself. I came to the conclusion that I could only trust God (or whatever name you want to give), and not even myself. Our minds play great tricks on us depending on the outside influences we allow in and depending on the expectations we give on this life and the next. A lot of people question this train of thought because it is not concrete, but the fact is, nothing is. I believe God speaks to us through our hearts, and it is this voice, the quite stillness, that we must listen to. Now, I understand there are those who do not believe in God, or who value the mind over the heart, or who have problems with my terminology, but deep down, I believe most understand what it is I am conveying with this message.

I wanted to add, I agree with you in that we should perhaps be cautious of those who think they know it all, but why condemn those who question? Questioning leads us to introspection, or one would hope. It is in this introspection that perhaps we may see another side.

[Doe]

Hi again, LG--

I guess I didn't make myself clear.  My trust tends to go to those who DO question, and who can also admit that perhaps they don't have all the answers, and that they can be wrong (it's a struggle I have with myself at times).

I was just thinking that my other criteria has to do with people being able to "walk the walk".  I've met people who talk ad nauseum about "light and love", and yet will, for example, condemn a homeless person for being homeless.  Show me by your actions that you have been working toward "enlightenment", and--no matter who you are or what your "station" is in life or afterwards--I will no doubt trust you more than those whose pretty words are belied by their actions and feelings (or lack thereof) toward others.

Doe

[looking_glass]

Hi again, LG--

I guess I didn't make myself clear.  My trust tends to go to those who DO question, and who can also admit that perhaps they don't have all the answers, and that they can be wrong (it's a struggle I have with myself at times).

I was just thinking that my other criteria has to do with people being able to "walk the walk".  I've met people who talk ad nauseum about "light and love", and yet will, for example, condemn a homeless person for being homeless.  Show me by your actions that you have been working toward "enlightenment", and--no matter who you are or what your "station" is in life or afterwards--I will no doubt trust you more than those whose pretty words are belied by their actions and feelings (or lack thereof) toward others.

Doe

Oh I hear ya. I misunderstood that part. Karlene wrote in another thread something similar. I agree, it's much harder to walk the walk and not just talk the talk. It is for that reason I wonder what my son will learn of us. I pray if anything he will see what I am not able to, and do what I am not able to. Better yet, I pray he follows his heart and sees the truth. When I come to a disagreement with someone, beliefs or otherwise, I pray that both parties may see the truth, even if it means I am proven wrong. Better to see the truth and have been wrong than to be right and spread a lie, knowingly or unknowingly, purposefully or not purposefully.

Take it easy Doe.

[lighting strikes twice]

Yes, all have fallen short of the glory! No agape love here. The righteous judge the sinners and the sinners become righteous and judge the (righteous) sinners and  there goes everyone into hell, with all their righteousness.  

[velvetraven]

demons and demonic spirits are very much real

[KitawnaMagyar]

Yes, Demonic spirits do exist.  Taking a fleshy form depends on who conjured something up through intense ritual...but yes they can take a body form.  For the most part, demonic spirits are ethereal and exist in the dimension that is about 3 feet from the ground.  Most humans are not tuned into that frequency to see them, but those who are balanced and gifted can in fact see them.  

Having had personal experiences with demonic entities that were sent by certain LHP groups in attempt to bring Me on board...it was not an easy task to overcome for they were powerful.  I have also dealt with elementals, a golem and a few wraiths sent... now the elemental (which was sent by a Cabbalist) was very powerful and although I lost the battle and was laid up for 3 days (complete with the bruising that surfaced that looked like I was jumped by a gang with baseball bats) afterwards, it did not deter Me from the path that I am meant to walk.

The other demonic entities may not be so demonic, just maleviolent in the aspect that they are stuck in limbo - don't know they have passed from the physical world yet and may need to be crossed over with the help of a medium...  

I'll give you an example.  One of My friends from high school - the family moved into a new development when I lived in a NYC suburb.  The development was built on an old cemetary from the late 1600's.  The property was sold to a real estate developer who moved the headstones to another area on the island but never removed the bodies that the development were built upon.  There was this native spirit's body that resided under the house and it was a mean s.o.b.  Terrified the hell out of us one day as we were in the den downstairs.  My friend and I were sitting on the couch and out of nowhere, this steakknife came flying at us - went between both of us and stuck in the panelled wall behind us.  Another occurance -  we entered her sister's room on several different occasions and the cross she had hanging over her bedroom door would often be upside down in the center of the room all by itself...  It was a pretty freaky house.  Another time, we had been sleeping over her house and awoke in the middle of the night with a dark presence that seemed to paralyze both of us - a pressure atop Myself as if a heavy weight were sitting on my chest and I could not breath, could not speak...  until she screamed and her mother came running in and turned the light on.  Her mother said she felt the freezing cold air "fly" past her....and the weight lifted and I could move and speak and breath again...  The family was tormented in their sleep for months.  They lived in that house (and the other families in the development experienced some strange occurrances as well) for 7 months before moving out and suing the developer.  

The place was eventually moved (they moved the town houses to another location) and the property property was sold.  The new developers relocated the bodies and built a park over the land tract.  

Yes, they do exist... some do not know they are still around.  Though they may be mean or mischevious, it may be because they were either mean in their physical life (in a way) or are perhaps protecting their home and property from strangers (not realizing that they have left the physical world).  Another type may be significant others who have passed on - who might continue to "protect" who belonged to them...

Either situation...they are real.

[ammo]

A spirit is a spirit. Some have good intentions, some are neutral and a few are wretched. As for demons, it is my avid beleif that they do not exist. If you make yourself open to the spirit world there are tons of things you can do to dispell bad influences. House cleansings, candle burning, amulets, etc. etc. I also think that the more people think about "evil" spirits, the more they are drawn to you. Your thoughts feed them the energy they need to sustain themselves.

[kurukulla]

yes demons exists.  i have no idea what they truly are but they are real and quite nasty.  they will manipulate you any way they can and feed off of your energy.  i have no clue as to why but they do.  

if you are opening yourself up in any psycho spiritual way you are also opening yourself up to the possibility of demons showing up.  this doesn't mean it will always happen but it does sometimes.  you can prevent it though.  depending on your religious beliefs there are numerous prayers, mantras, amulets, and incense that can be used to block them.  

if you are having problems with such an entity i would highly recommend you consult a religious professional.

[J&A_Hernandez_2007]

My belief is that demons are fallen angels. I have encountered what I call demons on a couple of occasions. When I have encountered them, the sense of fear and the fight or flight reaction is eminent. However, when I encounter spirits of people who have passed, I get the sense of peace or the sense that they are in need on something. I haven't yet encountered any negative human spirits, though, I did sense a negative spirit, (I think it was a demon) trying to get into my home, but I did not allow it to enter and told it to go away and it did and has not returned.

I was raised a strict Pentecostal and we were taught that it is only demons who manifest into spirits of humans or anything else. I tend to disagree with this doctrine because of my personal encounters with spirits. I have one that visits often and I know that he is not demonic, but the spirit of a good friend of my aunt's who passed away in 1981 of bone cancer. Now, my religious upbringing would have labeled him as a demon, but I know with my own spirit, that it is not the case.

As for opening up to spirits and fearing a demon would come, I think you have to know what your own spirit is telling you. It will alert you to the spirit being demonic or human. By being open to the spirit realm, you re opening yourself to those of whom you really want nothing to do with. If you are 'visited' by a demonic spirit, you tell it to leave and that it is not welcome and it will leave. At least, that is how I handle that situation and I have had no problem with them.

[Doe]

I was raised a strict Pentecostal and we were taught that it is only demons who manifest into spirits of humans or anything else. I tend to disagree with this doctrine because of my personal encounters with spirits.

It's gratifying to hear that someone is basing his (?) understanding on his own experiences, rather than on his religious upbringing, or the beliefs of others.

I don't know that we (the living) necessarily can ever know for certain how things are on the other side of things, and (as I've said here a million times!) one needs to be particularly wary of people who claim to have the inside scoop on any of it.  How could they?  Even those of us who see and talk to spirits are prone to mistakes, misunderstanding, and tricks, and things don't necessarily work in the spirit world the way that they work here.  If there's a "science" to it, it may very well be a science that the living aren't meant to fully understand.  But if you know that, and are therefore able to keep an open mind, that's OK.  The spirits who need your help will understand the limitations of your understanding, and work with you, I believe.

At the moment, I'm on the fence about the existence of demons, angels, etc.  For a long time I believed that they were artificial constructs created by the living for religious purposes, etc.  Now I'm not so sure (trying, as I say, to keep an open mind!).  Cetainly there are spirits who BEHAVE like demons, and others who behave like angels.  Maybe it's not necessary to categorize them or give them labels--just use compassion, good sense, and your best instincts, and do the best you can, and keep learning.  I don't think that there's necessarily anything that we can do to "get rid" of malevolent spirits if they want to be around, but we are entitled to our space and self-protection.

Doe

[Jynxx]

There are wayyy too many possible answers to this question, in my opinion. xD

Some may believe those things, while others would view the idea of 'demonic spirits' as something entirely different. Personally, I believe that there are dozens of ways that an 'entity' may manifest itself, whether demon, angel, spirit, ghost, poltergeist, or whatever else. As for how they put themselves across, including imitating loved ones, that may be a manner of perception. I'd hazard a guess that the more energy these beings are able to harness, the stronger they are, no matter what part of the good/evil totem pole they are on. Some may only send you incoherent whispers, others may manifest themselves in a way that we don't notice, but our subconcious plays tricks and we see what we 'want', 'expect', or think we 'should' see.

Are we protected if we open ourselves up to the spirit world?

Well, I'd like to ask a question first. Play Devil's Advocate, if you will:

Are we protected on our plane of existence?

I'd like to believe that certain measures can be taken to protect oneself no matter what the situation. There are meditative techniques to practice, ways to become 'null' to spiritual/electromagnetic/paranormal interference, protective circles, cones of protection, etc. There are infinite possibilities for protection in a world of infinite possibilites for danger.

I've personally noticed certain things to avoid if you aren't focused on what you're doing with protective measures in place, though. Some say that looking into mirrors in full dark is a big no-no when it comes to paranormal/metaphysical ickies. My own experience, and that of those in my life, is that you never stare into a mirror in half-light. It's extraordinary possible to catch a glimpse of something 'other' out of the corner of your eye in a mirror in any kind of light, particularly half. But staring 'into' a mirror, especially 'searching' without being prepared is a fairly big nono. Same goes with scrying, particularlly with water (notoriously unclear/deceptive/etc) or dark mirrors. Again, in my own opinion. >_<;

A very good friend of mine taught me something that I still find hard to take heed of, despite of numerous mishaps (both relatively insignificant and potentially life threatening). This is, essentially, don't go looking for something if you aren't prepared for it. If you can see it, chances are, it can see you as well. Unfortunately, my insatiable curiousity and thirst for knowledge tends to force a certain.. disregard for that bit of wisdom. But, in defense of myself, I HAVE been getting much better at null-type meditation, and 'dropping doors' (dropping 'doors' between yourself and the meta/para-icky.)

Then there's a case to be made that something that appears 'evil', 'malign', or 'dangerous' may just appear that way through no fault of it's own. A case of misunderstanding/misrepresentation, you could call it. And then there are things that can't be considered intelligent forms at all. There are the possibilites of psychic imprinting, EVP (the imprinted kind, not 'live action - yep, I roleplay too much), etc. It could just be something that caused strong enough emotion to be left behind, and isn't really 'there' at all.

I digressed quite a bit, so I apologize, but in many ways all these things are hand in hand for me. What you may think is a demonic spirit may really just be an imprint of emotional trauma, or a spirit/entity that can't quite get it's point across the right way. Or it's something that's bored, has nothing better to do, and decides to mess with us lowly humans. In any case, it's all a matter of energy, and there's always a way or two to at least lessen the impact of such. As for the church, 'Demons' are one of the things created to place fear into the hearts of Christian and Catholics (No offense meant to anyone who follows those faiths, merely a historical trend I've come across). The question with that is: Are they entirely a construct of the Church, to scare their people and persecute 'heathens' and 'heretics', are they based on some kind of previously proven (at that time) knowledge, or is it a bit of both? I'm leaning toward both. xD

Body or flesh at the beginning?

Chances are, yes. From all I can tell, scientifically speaking, and it's relatively easy to prove this at least a little bit, most paranormal and metaphysical 'entities' are made up of electromagnetic energy, which everything has. That's where one arguement for the human 'soul' comes in. When a body dies, where does the EME go? Energy doesn't die, it merely is recycled into other uses. Chances are, that's what spirits and paranormal phenomena come from. Residual energy after the death of a being, any living being. Ever had someone stand with their back to you, and slowly move your hand forward until they jumped/flinched/etc? Before you touched them? I'm of the opinion that that is the point where our body's EMFs (ElectroMagnetic Fields) come in contact, before our physical bodies do. There's even talk of that being what are aura's really are, and the aura 'colors' or 'markings' are the shades and patterns of the energy within us, that escapes and surrounds us to a certain degree, as well as that being the scientific explanaiton for the soul.

Okay. My 2 cents turned into 50,000. Sorry everyone, but I adore topics such as this.

Forgive? =D