capital punishment

[ConfusedMind]

I just came across a photo of Ajmal Kasab a minute ago. the first thing that came to my mind is that he is going to be hanged sometime this year. I just feel, can law have the right to kill in the name of justice? I have a strong 'NO' in answer. what do you people think?

[nighthawk]

I'm of several minds on this subject. Murder is murder is murder, sanctioned or not. I have worked in prisons and I can tell you firsthand that jail is as close as hell on earth as we can come up with. so which is more punishment, life in prison or a swift vengeful death? Most people on death row are severely mentally ill and need treatment. 'normal' people won't do the things it takes to get on death row. on the other hand-- there is the rabid dog argument. If there is no cure, might as well humanely put them down. Honestly, I don't know what is right, and what is justice and not vengence. And being in doubt, I beleive it is best to err on the side of life.

[ConfusedMind]

see, i have no problem with law punishing a murderer or a criminal. my point is that killing is not and never ever a punishment. so, law cannot justify its principles of killing a criminal just because he has killed someone. isn't it?

[enumero123]

an eye for an eye , a tooth for a tooth  this has been the law of the land for hundreds of years  in many countries death is the judgment  for criminal offenses  .sex offenders they cut off there genitals .for theft they cut off there hand ect, like it   or not  it does cut down on crime the usa has the highest crime rate  the most people in prison    .the bible says  the wages of sin is death ( gods law) man did not make this law ,but is responsible for enforcing it ....  as stated above many in prison are mental,to a point  of no help ..what do we do have such people  ?   i do not believe in killing  but we must enforce the laws and have strict no slack laws  .loop holes lawyers are bad business in many cases  ....    on a personal note  if you and your family was in danger of death  would you defend to the point of killing

[prasanna]

Dear friends,  

Kindly go through the following link please.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_pu ... t_in_India


Thanks.

[enumero123]

again i say  wages of sin is death  this is gods law not mans, but we are to up hold this law  ...jesus says  i have come not to commend but to save, salvation comes from repentance, to repent is   to be forgiven to turn from our sinful ways  ..but what does society do to assure a sinful man is truly repentant  and will not sin again  ... in my eyes if one knows the law of god  and his choice (free will )is go against the law, than he punishment should be of equal measures ,now on the other hand if one is never told the law  ,and this can be proven, then repentance is in order a second chances ..... now society which in most countries  follow a creed of  separation of church and state  we can replace church with religious law, spiritual law ect   .which then in my eyes doesnt follow gods law ...  we then act in opposition  making our own laws   .......so a man who kills which is evil sinfully  and who has no remorse ...and is found can not be rehabilitated  non repentance   is not put to death but given life in prison  .this again goes against the wages of sin is death .........    by putting one in prison does not stop the evil/ destroy it  .but lets it live/ feed  .....theres power within   even in prison  they have a voice which does reach the outside world   .gang members in prison  call shoots from within    ....look at charles manson  the evil didnt die  but feeds   ..i believe in strict law , no loop holes , enforce these laws  and crime will go down it works   ...Islamic law is a example  i didnt say perfect because it to has problems  .but i have been to other countries and they dont play games  like we do in the states  .......   when i was in japan  the police didnt carry  guns but i seen them beat the shit out of people .....  a American boy once was beat with a stick his punishment for spray painting private property .........  Singapore  i believe it was ......

[ConfusedMind]

HA HA HA HA HA HA..... I can't stop. Let me hold myself. prasanna, I'm coming back to you. let me address enumero123 first.

enumero123,

an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. !!! which country do you live in? or are you stil in the Middle Age of barbarism? you are talking about time when the concept of 'constitution' had no existence. Autocracy ruled. lucky are the people if the individual at the throne has reason. fretful is their fate if he is without it.

Bible? God's law? I personally regard Bible as a philosophy enriched fiction, perhaps the best of its kind. no disrespect for Christianity. but this is my personal view.

Anyways, I manage to agree with you. Did Christ go for vengence? You may say Christ was no criminal. He did not kill innocent lives. But you have to understand that the Jew leaders condemned Jesus. and, since it them, it should be assumed that religious and political reasons behind it. mark, 'religious' and 'political' 'reasons'. weren't they what we call law today? so, now you should have no problem in accepting that Christ's Crucification was justified. Christ was a 'law'violater in a relative view. But, do you think so? you don't; for, you apply your sense. if you can feel for one technical law-violater of a time, can't you feel that forcing death is no 'punishment'?

I don't sympathise Kasab. may be, Kasab does deserve it, considering what he has done. but, 'right to kill', is something that no human being possesses, neither does law or ethics (since they are human brain produced). you'll say Kasab did it. he accounted for as many as 72 innocent lives. do you think, he was human when he was spraying bullets from AK 47? He was a beast or anything but human. you'll say man-eaters are shot. but, they are shot when they are in action. had kasab been killed in action, that killing would have been justified. for, that is not killing. that is the only way of saving lives that otherwise would have been killed. you may say, ensuring security is necessary even now. yes, but you have already caught the man-eater, caged it, broken its teeth and blunted its claws. now it can be treated, used for compensation, till the extent possible. but you cannot 'kill' it.

"when i was in japan  the police didnt carry  guns but i seen them beat the shit out of people" - though it does not exist in reality, this picture is very symbolic. punish but don't kill.

an eye for an eye!!!! A tooth for a tooth!!! do you have a son/daughter, enumero? does he/she goes to school? what if he gets involved in a fight and breaks the arm of his classmate? would you break your son's arm? you said, "i believe in strict law , no loop holes".

"but what does society do to assure a sinful man is truly repentant  and will not sin again" - see, society proves failure. you may not be able to make it repent (Though Kasab has repented, you may flout it saying it's the trick to avoid death sentence). but, the society should be able to to ensure that this person does not account for another life. don't make Kasab pay for the falure of your society. what did you say? "even in prison  they have a voice which does reach the outside world" - you are outside the prison, can't you reach out with neutralizing voice to a wider world?

had one of my family members been a vistim? had I been in the situation? since I was really not there, whatever i say will appear to be purposed to support my point of view. so let me cite a real-life example.

Shantanu Saikia, who lost his wife Sabina Sehgal Saikia, a senior journalist with a leading newspaper, in the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks has said he and his family have forgiven Ajmal Kasab.

''We hold no grudges against Kasab. What he did was indoctrinated into him and his group. She was not the target, but a victim. There is no feeling of revenge, anger or rancour. But my son wants to meet him. Probably he wanted to come to terms with his mother's death, by doing that,'' said Saikia, while participating in a discussion on a news channel.."


prasanna:

I would like to say the same in reply to what you said. But i have the liability to explain why i laughed at you. HAHAHAHAHAHA. before I start, let me thank you for methodically presenting the information, though i know the source.

hahahahaha

How do you live in Dubai? i heard Daud Ibrahim bases there. Laden is still Alive.

hahahaha

you have added Mother Teresa's photograph as your profile picture. look at your signature line. LEAD, KINDLY LIGHT.???  LOVE IS GOD,!!!  LOVE IS OCEAN, !!! LIVE TO LOVE TO LIVE. !!!!!!????????

HYPOCRITE! is there any better word that describes you, considering what you show yourself to be and what you end up saying. frustrating.

[enumero123]

an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. !!! which country do you live in? or are you still in the Middle Age of barbarism?  in the usa indiana  but this concept is still in place in many countries around the world  

an eye for an eye!!!! A tooth for a tooth!!! do you have a son/daughter, enumero? does he/she goes to school? what if he gets involved in a fight and breaks the arm of his classmate? would you break your son's arm? you said, "i believe in strict law , no loop holes".  first of all my children knew better  i wasnt always as passive as i am now  .they knew the rules  and one of them was dont put your hands on anybody  ......  second i have told them many times  you do crime,, karma is a bitch  ...


and i will not speak bible to one  who makes statements like yours   ( Bible? God's law? I personally regard Bible as a philosophy enriched fiction )theres  no point in it     ...but it may be the reason why the world is in the mess it is  in  a disregard for divine law  ...


my Scorpio sister  your kinda cute  you remind me of my niece    yes i have three children  18 22 23

[prasanna]

Dear Confused Mind,


   Sorry had I hurt u by any means &  sorry for all your frustrations reading my  opinion.   I dont want  to stay in this thread.


Thanks.

[ConfusedMind]

sorry, Prasanna for laughing at you. that was the spontaneous reaction that came to me. you have your views. you have all right to have them.

all I can do is to beg you people and everyone I know to 'feel' that law is for order, law is for punishing so that others do not repeat criminal activities. but law is not an excuse to kill a life.

[FaceValue]

If I were to cast my opinion, it would be that most of those who kill want to die themselves. I would believe it for myself had I taken a life, and mercy to me would be for the same 'justice' or what your name for it would be, to be passed on to me. If I were to be so bold in saying...those who resist and say they want life are simply acting upon a primal want to live.

[ConfusedMind]

thanks Facevalue. though I don't agree totally with you, you have some valid points that I cannot deny. "those who kill want to die themselves" - Judas knew that he betrayed Jesus and contributed to His death. he committed suicide. Didn't Kasab say that he no more wants to live. he prefers that he better be killed? so, what's your point?

[FaceValue]

I had no knowledge of those words being said by anyone else, Confused. As far as I've known life to be, it has been one of the few truths I know not to be false. As to your question at the end-there is no point. Not in my point of view, anyway. Perhaps that's where what I would call 'rational thinking' ends and religion begins, or wherever we come to accept what is.

[Dionysus]

For killing over 70 people, that man does not deserve to die. He deserves worse. I myself have suffered a lot from such people, and if it were ME to deliver the justice I would do it in a mode so brutal, that not even the whole crimes and torture of the christian inquisition would not be able to compare to the torture a single man would suffer for what he did.

For a long time i feel that every human is a part of me, but if my little finger would be consumed by gangrene, I would cut it off without hesitation. This is what murderers are: gangrene of the society: and they don't need to be just simply removed, they deserve to be publicly tortured so anyone with these kinds of thoughts would not put them into practice. That is my opinion, and I respect the man that inspired me, the ruler of Transilvania called Vlad Tepes.

I know we become better if we forgive, but what about the criminals that receive forgiveness? Do you think they will get better?Also, I am acting under the effect of a song about retribution: (lyrics:)"If killing you destroys myself, I wouldn't have it any other way."

People who just happen to kill someone and live with regret all their lives are the only ones mercy should be directed to. But mass murderers? NEVER. I'm sorry to be so vengeful, but this is the way I am. Although I respect ConfusedMind's point of view and totally understand it. And, I repeat, that is my point of view, as I'm being a bit subjective on this matter.

[Lady Moira]

A death penalty seeks to serve a higher purpose.  It is not only about the victim and the murderer, it is a vast bigger ecuation.  

The victim leaves kinsmen who will suffer for the rest of their natural lives the loss of whom that was murdered, and while for us who have been blessed to walk through life without such an experience it might seem easier and simpler to "pick up the pieces and move forward" it is not a simple task and in most cases the pain of knowing that their loved one breathes, walks, loves, cries and laughs no more while their murdered still does is too much to bare.

The murderer presents another complication:  Fan clubs.  It is no secret that there are thousands of "normal" people who actually believe that murderers, assassins and rapists are actual action heros and consequentially they are worth being followed and adored.  Women who "fall in love" with the worst criminals is not something unheard.  

So the bottom line here is:  Are you willing to let their thoughts and way of thinking be spread outside the same prison that is containing "it" (for I cannot call "him" or "her" since they are not humans).  I was a hunter once, I took lives and I have to say that there is no day I do not regret or ask forgiveness for the animal lives I took.  However it did help me to understand the darkest side of mankind; the power that rushes through your body as the life extinguishes is almost addictive, do not get me wrong, it takes a LOT MORE POWER and it is A BIGGER AND MORE POWERFUL rush to turn AWAY FROM VIOLENCE AND LIFE-TAKING...  Still I understand the virus-like thought.  

So I do believe that the death penalty is a good thing; of course, it has a lot of consequences that should be balanced out and there is a lot more "dark corners" that need to be lighted up for justice to be dequately provided.  In the meantime, of course there will be those innocent men and women who will be wrongfully accused and executed while the actual perpetrators walk away laughing...  

In spiritual terms... I do not know.  I KNOW that there is justice but who and how it is served, I do not know and I cannot even begin to believe that I can understand it.

Lady Moira